A gathering place for Vindictus players of any region or server to get together and discuss the game.


    Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Share
    Shippuu
    avatar
    Forum Coder
    Server :
    • NA East

    IGN : Shippuu
    Posts : 205
    Joined : 2015-12-17

    Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by Shippuu on Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:13 pm

    This thread is just to serve as a hub for discussing the changes in this update, beyond those stated on the official site, as well as any oddities in those changes.

    Ein Lacher


    I apparently get to have a bit of humble pie with this one. I've been stating for a while that claims of those bosses scaling with your stats were false. Apparently, I was the one wrong. I had actual reasons behind that (a lack of data indicating it in the db, a lack of proof from KR players that it actually occurred, and the "standardized" stats of the enemies). All of it turned out to be irrelevant.

    Some form of scaling is indeed going on. I have confirmed that it is not an artificial ceiling, and that it isn't just a very high cap. I do not yet know if it is the enemies stats changing, or an invisible percentage reduction of the efficacy of your own stats. Personally, based on my knowledge of how in battle stats work, my first guess is that an invisible percentage reduction is being applied. However, I have proven to be wrong about this place once already, so I don't want to make any theories yet.

    Royal Raids:


    This whole change seems like a mess. This change was supposed to occur alongside Smash 1, where the 24 mans would begin dropping "Mysterious Shard Grade 1" from the Lv.80 bottles, not "orange-quality weapon essences". Those shards would be used alongside other materials with the Composite Enhance/Synthesis system to apply Remove ATT Limit to your weapon, which raises your overall ATT cap.

    Instead, we have the post-Smash 1 and post-optimization version of the raids, dropping top grade weapon essences instead of those shards. They also still have an ATT cap, despite having their full HP values, which is another oddity of this update. Ancient Lakoria has 34 million HP, and the others have 30 million.

    Aside from making the change feel random and pointless, this will also incite complaints about Smash 1 when it arrives and possibly replaces those weapon essences with Mysterious Shard Grade 1 instead. Those shards will likely sell for less than weapon essences, and thus this will be a nerf to Royal Raids. I do not yet know if those essences are normally in that bottles drop table. Unfortunately, getting accurate information about the game from KR players is like pulling teeth, so we will likely not know until we get that update.

    And since I'm already blacklisted from discussion on their forums for existing in the first place, here is some additional info about the update's changes:


    No new hairs/inners were translated, meaning there will be no additions two weeks later like there have been for the last few patches.

    I found no evidence of other events coming except for MAYBE a quest named "Mysterious Power!" that gives a generic 30 day stat necklace. It's stats grow with attendance or something, but they look low.

    There's a quest name for an ID Event like the jump event functioned, but nothing to go along with it, so I assume it's incomplete still.

    Struggle Tower is called Abyssal Arena. All of its associated text is translated. This feels early, maybe they are going to try to merge Smash 1 and Smash 2 together?

    Unrelated


    This thread is for discussion of anything to do with the changes in this update. If you spot something else, please mention it here. If you are curious if X feature was changed, feel free to ask about it here. If you want to discuss the content itself, such as winning in Ein Lacher, make a new thread about that.
    boddole
    Newbie
    Posts : 18
    Joined : 2016-07-26

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by boddole on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 am

    I suppose the following qualifies for this thread - Between 'hearing things' from other players, and then reading this post, I'm a bit lost on what exactly (or at least what is suspected) on what effects various stats have in Ein Lacher. Below is what my current understanding is, any updates are appreciated.

    ATT:
    Makes no appreciable difference regardless of amount?

    Crit:
    Is this capped? If so, is that cap number the same number that it would be for the 'regular' version of the boss?

    AS:

    No limit, but I did hear at one point that having a certain amount or more would cause the bosses to have 'more hp'. But I'm not sure what that number was (55/60?) or how much HP it would supposedly add.
    Shippuu
    avatar
    Forum Coder
    Server :
    • NA East

    IGN : Shippuu
    Posts : 205
    Joined : 2015-12-17

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by Shippuu on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:39 am

    ATT - I have no idea whatsoever. I still don't know how stats are handled in Ein Lacher. I still vehemently disagree with the idea of boss scaling, but there is something going on somewhere.

    Crit - See above

    Attack Speed - I don't know if that is true.

    I personally don't do the testing for data the majority of the time, I am usually just an aggregator of info. Although very rarely I will do my own work when I am REALLY motivated to find something or figure something out.

    This information would require major work, which nobody is going to want to put in nowadays, with how Nexon NA is.
    boddole
    Newbie
    Posts : 18
    Joined : 2016-07-26

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by boddole on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:06 am

    "This information would require major work, which nobody is going to want to put in nowadays, with how Nexon NA is."
    -I can definitely appreciate that...I wonder if Nexon considers playing the game for the purpose of research as data mining.../eyeroll. That said, I might take a shot at some of the Ein Lacher stuff if I get bored enough. I think establishing some basic concepts should be easy enough (though very tedious...). Granted, there are probably only a few people that would even care, but I kind of like doing stuff like this anyway, so I may as well share the results.
    boddole
    Newbie
    Posts : 18
    Joined : 2016-07-26

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by boddole on Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:46 pm

    Ok, well I got around to doing some work, got some results (or at least some general trends). I'm not claiming this to be 'scientific', it clearly isn't. But short of doing a crazy amount of work, this general round of testing should at least give an idea of what is going on behind the scenes.
     
    Of course there are the obvious problems with me not having enough gear to truly isolate only 1 stat at a time (if its really even possible at all), so in this round of testing 'what stats are causing the changes' have to be inferred from the results. 

    The full data set I have is contained in an Excel file, but to keep things brief, I'll just summarize the testing methods and what the results were:

    3 different gear setups (decent S3 gear, same gear + bad weapon, no gear + bad weapon) were used to test against 2 different Ein Lacher runs (Red Ruins and Guardian), 6 runs in total. The gear was chosen because it creates a 'wide spread' in terms of stats like ATT, Bal, Crit, AS and the runs were chosen because they were the lowest and highest level Ein Lacher runs on the board.

    The 'intermediate gear setup' (real gear + bad weapon) follows the general data trend from 'Real Gear' (S3 items) to 'No Gear' (no gear + bad weapon), so I won't be talking about it to save time.

    With very few exceptions, only 1 attack was used (and other attacks are used/filtered out depending on the analysis done).


    Let's get to some specifics:
    'Real Gear': ATT 22642, Crit 108, Bal 89, AS 55.
    'No Gear': ATT 6118, Crit 48, Bal 37, AS 10.

    Results:
    *Both runs had almost identical hit points for 1 Bar of boss health per gear set. [Variance was less than 400 hp between the runs / under 1% variance, smaller than 1 attack]

    *Boss 1 bar hp increased as the stats of the player increased. [~72k per bar with 'No Gear' up to ~78k with 'Real Gear', so ~60k over 10 bars]

    *'No Gear' scored both the highest and lowest damage per single hit, and had the largest spread of max-min. ['Real Gear' had the smallest max-min spread]

    *When each gear set's 'average damage per attack' was derived from both runs, all 3 gear sets had almost identical average damage. [Less than 10 points from Max to Min, about a 1% difference].


    Immediate takeaways: Bal is being...Balanced. Boss HP is related to 1 or more stats, don't really have the gear to pick out what it is at the moment.


    Last edited by boddole on Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:51 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
    boddole
    Newbie
    Posts : 18
    Joined : 2016-07-26

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by boddole on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:39 pm

    Ok, more data!

    Summary from last time:
    *Boss HP appears to be consistent regardless of boss level for a given set of gear.

    *Boss HP does scale based on how 'good' your gear is, though what stat(s) are causing this is unclear.

    *Balance is effectively irrelevant, though the way balance is balanced is a bit goofy (Vindi being goofy? Impossible!).


    New Insights:
    BAL:
    Rather than 'just' giving a player with less than 90 BAL full balance behind the scenes, what happens is that 'their damage is calculated' then a multiplier is applied to that damage which is approximately equivalent to: [1+((95-((BAL+100)/2))/95)].

    This explains how low BAL players can do both lower and higher damaging single hits than someone with 90 BAL.

    Effective Attack Cap:
    The Effective Attack Cap seems to be the same in Ein Lacher just like any other battle. Comparing the Max Damage scored for a specific attack in Ein Lacher using the 'Real Gear' setup yielded exactly the same value against White Tyrant in a normal fight.

    ATT:
    ATT appears to be effectively irrelevant, and it appears you are always 'attack capped' in Ein Lacher based on observations from how BAL works. 

    Whether or not your stats are simply boosted or scaled (like BAL) I don't know, and I don't care enough to examine it.

    ATT Release:
    ATT Release appears to be irrelevant, though I did score the highest damaging single hit I've ever recorded with a gear setup containing ATT Rel. However, the difference in damage was just under 0.5%, so even if Release is doing something even 500 of it is basically meaningless.

    Crit:
    Crit does not appear to be normalized…at all…In fact, until you hit the presumed cap of 50, your crit appears to be calculated the same as it would be for any other fight (your Crit - Boss Resist).

    Test result summary:
    1) 110 crit in Red Ruins yielded 57 crits in 100 attacks (57%). A bit high but close enough to 50 that I would suspect the normal crit cap is still in effect.

    2) 48 in RR yielded 16/97 (16.5%). This is suspiciously close to 48-33 (15) (the Gnoll Chieftain's resist in the normal Red Ruins battle).

    3) 108 in Garden of Tears was 22/91 (24%). This is quite close to 108 - 80.

    4) 48 in GoT was 0/111...Meaning that either there is no crit floor in Ein or that I was just flat out unlucky.

    The data above to me clearly suggests that Crit is not being manipulated in any way inside of Ein.

    AS:
    AS does not appear to effect boss speed at all.

    Test result summary:
    Gnoll Chieftain was used, and his 'howl, 2 slams, spin' attack was compared across 55 AS and 10 AS using 2 'key points' during the attack as a frame of reference ('peak' of his howl, and the impact of his 2nd slam). The videos used as reference material were both captured at a solid 30 FPS, then stepped though frame by frame in After Effects.

    The results were completely identical, both took 100 frames in-between key points (~3.33 seconds) using both AS gear setups.

    This isn't to say that perhaps AS doesn't do something to the bosses (maybe less 'down time' or perhaps triggers 'harder patterns') but raw speed doesn't seem impacted.


    Last edited by boddole on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
    Sponsored content

    Re: Ein Lacher and Royal Raid Changes

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:28 am