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    General Chit Chat

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    Shippuu
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    General Chit Chat

    Post by Shippuu on Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:32 am

    This thread is for any Vindictus-related posts you want, that don't quite warrant a whole thread.

    Consider this a thread where you can post about recent successful enhancements, depressing booms at Ferghus, nice drops/gachapon loot, or things of the like. Feel free to rant and vent about things in Vindictus here as well. Any kind of one-off posts that abide by the general forum rules.

    Beyond even that actually, feel free to use this as a plain chit chat thread as well, between each other.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shippuu on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:09 am

    ...And I myself will make the first post here, to kick it off. A bit of commentary on the state of community issues in Vindictus, and why nothing is changing.

    If you were to think of the biggest issues the community has to deal with nowadays, excluding the actual features/performance of the game itself, what comes to mind? Very likely, at least some of these are subjects that immediately come to mind: lack of communication from Nexon, lack of honesty from Nexon, and the mismanagement of the Volunteer Forum Moderators.

    What if I told you that these issues exist because we CHOSE to let them exist?



    I'll even go so far as to explain how.

    For well over a year, players have been complaining about the Volunteer Forum Moderators and their terrible management of the official forums. Complaints of abuse of power, censorship, favoritism, bias, hypocrisy. VFM have been rightfully accused of all of these things over this time period, more than once for each.

    Yet, despite all of this, despite this supposed immense dissatisfaction over the VFM, and claims of quitting the whole game over them, nobody actually cares. Nobody flips over the table and proposes a better alternative, nobody abandons the forums for /r/Vindictus or some other location. They just keep using the forums that they claim to hate. If you have fit this description of having complained about the forums, yet continue using them, please read this web page real quick: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

    I opened these forums in May, and started mentioning the fact that they were in development in December. How many people even bothered to make accounts here? Barely 80. How many different people have ever bothered to post on these forums? About 20. Clearly, given these numbers, people are entirely satisfied with the official forums, and see no reason to switch. This is the message that you are sending Nexon. That you are OK with what they do, and that you approve of it. That when it comes time to side with someone, you choose Nexon.

    If the playerbase is so accepting of Nexon's current policies, why should they change? What do they have to gain? Further to this, since the playerbase approves of their censorship, what does Nexon have to gain from being honest? Being honest keeps the controversy alive, which is bad for sales, it hurts their image. Since the playerbase is fine with a little censorship, it's better to just delete and dissenting posts, maybe even ban them as a show of power. What are they going to do, go somewhere else? The majority has already spoken, that they will accept no less than Nexon's official forums.

    If you want an example of the playerbase pretending to hate Nexon but then getting back together with them, let's look at the TIR Coin debate. A large discussion was brought up about it, many legitimate points were brought up, and much misinformation was had from the VFM. Zero word from Nexon.

    Cut to their first response to the issue: applying forum bans to many of the users who were in favor of EU keeping TIR Coins, which did include myself, for full disclosure. Shortly following this, several known forum trolls saw an opportunity to swoop into the thread and start posting their bullshit, serving as misinformation and literally worthless posts ("TIR is bad" was the entirety of the message of many of the posts, with no further comment given by them). VFM allowed these posts to remain, and continued to moderate those that disagreed with them. Eventually, it got so bad that the creator of the thread requested that it be locked due to the sheer volume of misinformation that was being spread and assisted by the VFM.

    A lot of disgust was expressed over this whole debacle, and I even pointed out beforehand exactly what Nexon was going to say when they finally responded (I was right, by the way). We all knew what they were going to say and do. We all knew EU had no chance of keeping TIR Coins, and NA had no chance of getting TIR Coins, because Nexon America simply doesn't care. Economic issues for EU players be damned, it's easier to disable TIR Coins than deal with their existence (though Ruin3d's stance that they are pay2win may also be a factor. Buying AP with cash is fair, however.)

    Cut to now. For all of September, there hasn't been a single thread about TIR Coins, or a reply to a thread about TIR Coins. All of those people who expressed such disgust and hate of Nexon and the VFM's actions continue to use their forums.

    This is why these things happen over and over.
    Arcueid
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Arcueid on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:29 am

    Went to web-quiz event. Threw two dices. The first one got me 1300 AP, the second got me a question "How many horses in the carriage in Colhen?" (4 or 3). I lost.

    Still... NA and EU need to learn from asian servers and make these events (Like Bra-Majjong, KaiTris). That way, people will at least keep themselves from endless farming and do something fun.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shadowcity2 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:31 am

    Arcueid wrote:Went to web-quiz event. Threw two dices. The first one got me 1300 AP, the second got me a question "How many horses in the carriage in Colhen?" (4 or 3). I lost.

    Still... NA and EU need to learn from asian servers and make these events (Like Bra-Majjong, KaiTris). That way, people will at least keep themselves from endless farming and do something fun.

    I'm not sure if events can save VindictusNA. People shouldn't be playing for events, they should be playing it because they enjoy the game.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Arcueid on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:38 am

    Shadowcity2 wrote:
    Arcueid wrote:Went to web-quiz event. Threw two dices. The first one got me 1300 AP, the second got me a question "How many horses in the carriage in Colhen?" (4 or 3). I lost.

    Still... NA and EU need to learn from asian servers and make these events (Like Bra-Majjong, KaiTris). That way, people will at least keep themselves from endless farming and do something fun.

    I'm not sure if events can save VindictusNA. People shouldn't be playing for events, they should be playing it because they enjoy the game.
    It's not just about enjoyment. It's about Dev's/GM's way of actually interacting with players - makes you feel that they exist.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shadowcity2 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:48 am

    Arcueid wrote:
    Shadowcity2 wrote:
    Arcueid wrote:Went to web-quiz event. Threw two dices. The first one got me 1300 AP, the second got me a question "How many horses in the carriage in Colhen?" (4 or 3). I lost.

    Still... NA and EU need to learn from asian servers and make these events (Like Bra-Majjong, KaiTris). That way, people will at least keep themselves from endless farming and do something fun.

    I'm not sure if events can save VindictusNA. People shouldn't be playing for events, they should be playing it because they enjoy the game.
    It's not just about enjoyment. It's about Dev's/GM's way of actually interacting with players - makes you feel that they exist.

    You're right but events aren't the answer for a stronger bond between the devs and the players. Actually listening to what players want is the answer but Nexon NA seems unable to pass the message to Korea.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shippuu on Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:38 pm

    Unwilling, is more likely. I can't ignore the fact that very shortly after Ruin3d made his "stand" against pay2win things in the depot (like TIR Coins), we very quickly after were given AP Capsules in the depot, unlike our equivalent region EU. This seemed like a direct request from NA.

    Reading his post, even knowing it was about a website event, made me think of something I had missed the existence of once before. In RuneScape, there is a game corner where you can play checkers, connect four, and some other odd game (Reversi I think?) with other players for fun. Having things like this would be a nice way to pass time while waiting for other things.

    Rather than sitting around staring at town or tabbing out while people in your raid party are setting up, wouldn't it be a novel experience to just get together with some of the others in the party and play poker or some other card/board game? It would also be something easy and familiar for the CM/GM to drop in on and play with players on.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shadowcity2 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:07 am

    It would be nice to have a Game Room but unfortunately we don't have a reliable place for ideas and suggestions. Despite being a MMORPG, Vindictus lacks traditional MMORPG aspects such as exploring, and will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future. We can keep trying to communicate with Nexon NA but honestly, we have not progressed since the removal of Zoltar.
    Shippuu
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shippuu on Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:37 pm

    Shadowcity2 wrote:It would be nice to have a Game Room but unfortunately we don't have a reliable place for ideas and suggestions. Despite being a MMORPG, Vindictus lacks traditional MMORPG aspects such as exploring, and will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future. We can keep trying to communicate with Nexon NA but honestly, we have not progressed since the removal of Zoltar.

    I wouldn't want a game room for it, honestly. I'd prefer to have it as a menu option to do it anywhere on a whim.

    If they wanted to animate it, they could just require all involved players be in the same area of the same town, then teleport them to specific spots and spawn in a table like an expertise one.

    Any kind of idea suggesting needs to leapfrog useless Nexon NA and manage to appear on Inven, I think.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by jjX___ on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:04 pm

    Heyyo. First time back since forever, but I've got to reply to post number two.
    The reason people use nexon's forums are three, in order from least to most significant:

    1: It is the forum of choice for people who are employed by Nexon. They have totally lied to us in the past, I get that. They are not trusted with accurately conveying event/update details, I get that. But nexon forums are the place to go to for yelling at a dev, which people do, even if it gets them banned--and I expect it will be that place forever.
    If I may take a guess, I bet that vindmanual does not want a nexon presence here (as long as the moderators show no signs of change or remorse). But then you must concede that it is difficult to separate p2p threads from the p2nexon threads. Threads want to be with other threads.

    2: People don't see leaving as an act of protest. People see leaving as a sign of giving up. And moreover, people think that others see leaving as a sign of giving up. People do feel injustice at the horrid state of...everything, but the first instinct is to stay and fix it, keep asking for change.
    Because what if we didn't fix it; we just let it rot? Like it or not, vindictus.nexon.net is the face of Vindictus to any new player. If the "official" forums are trash...? If the player base seems to have given up on nexon...? If the steam reviews are sh--oh wait.

    3: vindmanual forums have not reached critical mass. Yes, I know this sounds like irrational, self-referential reasoning, but this is how people think. "Huh, this forum doesn't have a single full page in any of it's sections. There must be something wrong with it." I'm sure this problem will fix itself in time (we're both on the vindidiscord, and look at that thing now) but as of now, the first impression of vindimanual forums is disquiet. And this fear is not unfounded: why post if there will be no discussion? Why use this marketplace when the other one is bigger?

    Solve these problems in reverse order. If you get the population, the benefits of not having horrible mods will become relevant, people will see the value in switching and the right threads will migrate here.

    But you gotta get that pop. I can't help you there. I can only tell you what I think is going on.
    GL!
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    Re: General Chit Chat

    Post by Shippuu on Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:31 am

    quote from jjX___:
    Heyyo. First time back since forever, but I've got to reply to post number two.
    The reason people use nexon's forums are three, in order from least to most significant:

    1: It is the forum of choice for people who are employed by Nexon. They have totally lied to us in the past, I get that. They are not trusted with accurately conveying event/update details, I get that. But nexon forums are the place to go to for yelling at a dev, which people do, even if it gets them banned--and I expect it will be that place forever.
    If I may take a guess, I bet that vindmanual does not want a nexon presence here (as long as the moderators show no signs of change or remorse). But then you must concede that it is difficult to separate p2p threads from the p2nexon threads. Threads want to be with other threads.

    2: People don't see leaving as an act of protest. People see leaving as a sign of giving up. And moreover, people think that others see leaving as a sign of giving up. People do feel injustice at the horrid state of...everything, but the first instinct is to stay and fix it, keep asking for change.
    Because what if we didn't fix it; we just let it rot? Like it or not, vindictus.nexon.net is the face of Vindictus to any new player. If the "official" forums are trash...? If the player base seems to have given up on nexon...? If the steam reviews are sh--oh wait.

    3: vindmanual forums have not reached critical mass. Yes, I know this sounds like irrational, self-referential reasoning, but this is how people think. "Huh, this forum doesn't have a single full page in any of it's sections. There must be something wrong with it." I'm sure this problem will fix itself in time (we're both on the vindidiscord, and look at that thing now) but as of now, the first impression of vindimanual forums is disquiet. And this fear is not unfounded: why post if there will be no discussion? Why use this marketplace when the other one is bigger?

    Solve these problems in reverse order. If you get the population, the benefits of not having horrible mods will become relevant, people will see the value in switching and the right threads will migrate here.

    But you gotta get that pop. I can't help you there. I can only tell you what I think is going on.
    GL!

    I mostly agree with this post. To reply to the three main points individually:

    1: I don't mind Nexon themselves making accounts here. I disallowed the use of prefix tags such as [GM], but I can manually apply those if a Nexon employee contacts me on an official account requesting it (this will not grant them any sort of power whatsoever, though). The VFM are indeed not allowed, though. Their behavior should not be condoned, and I cannot condone it. They would be immediately banned for misinformation, flamebaiting, and toxic activities. The main message my post made was that people should not outcry about censorship and other serious issues if they are not prepared to actually do anything about it.

    2: Giving up on the official forums is not a bad thing. I gave up on trying to "change" them when I received a ban for "trolling" for supporting EU keeping TIR Coins. Being completely honest, I feel better now, and I'm even a little more productive. Not being able to see the toxic bullshit that the VFM and Saygo post to divide the playerbase has greatly improved my Vindictus experience. I disagree with the official forums being the face of the game, though. A LOT of guildmates and people I see in ch.1 have no interest in the forums whatsoever, and never did. To them, the forums are entirely meaningless. I'd even go as far as to say that those who don't care about any type of forums at all are a majority.

    3: You hit the nail on the head here. This is exactly it. There isn't any activity on these forums, and so nobody wants to create any. Coming up with an intentional solution to this isn't feasible, however. Activity creates activity, and that is the only way to do it. I can't MAKE people post, they have to choose to do it themselves. The forums did not take off on creation, and so I chose to let them coast along until activity arises. The Dev Logs were to offer a bit of interesting content for people curious about the development of Vindictus Manual, as a reason to drop by off and on. The random threads I have made have been attempts to bring up discussion or to aggregate large amounts of data, again to give purpose to visiting the forums.

    Admittedly it has led to less drive to make fancy forum things, though. The v3 Armory is trampling all over my other dev goals, including fixing the v2 Armory on the live site, lol.
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    Re: General Chit Chat

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